Roger L. Simon: How violent is the USA?

In the wake of the tragedy in Virginia (and the one in Colorado) we are hearing a lot of hand-wringing in the media (including Pajamas Media!) about how violent the US is.... what should we do.... etc., etc.

This is a country of three hundred million people. Compared to the rest of the world, I have not noticed it to be particularly violent. Europe, during my lifetime, has had fifty million or so die by each others' hands. Asia, under Mao and Pol Pot and others, has seen carnage that may even surpass that hideous figure. The thirty-three who were murdered by a solitary lunatic in Virginia would not have created a blink in those environments. And we are not even alone in this form of solitary rage killing (assuming that you don't think Pol Pot is "extended" rage killing). Even tiny Scotland has seen it occur, a country with a population of but five million. On a per capita basis, they could be argued to be far more violent than we are. (Sixteen were killed by the mass murderer in Scotland in 1996.) But that would be a specious argument just as arguing that the carnage in Virginia means that the USA is more violent than, say, France, where riots have raged off and on for the last couple of years.

My writing this is, of course, to demonstrate that the debates over the Second Amendment (about which I am agnostic) that are emerging from this tragedy are essentially pointless. Like all tragedies, the message is deeper and more complex than the quotidian arguments over gun control.

Comments

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Central and South America have extremely high murder rates as well. I think that America just gets more attention is all. Somehow it always seems to mean more when it happens here. I don't care what it is, violence, civil war, slavery, pushing the natives out of the way, etc. Somehow it always reflects more and worse on America than anywhere else.

Many of the people who write about the evil of firearms are simply afraid of them, and much of that fear stems from ignorance.

I believe that this young man who did this atrocity had many issues. I came to this country as a child and had to assimilate to your ways and although I did that to a degree,we kept our traditions within our home as well. It is hard enough going through the teenage years and trying to stay focused with school but if he was a very shy person to begin with-a quiet kept to himself loner type person and he was continuously picked on and laughed at in school-it must have been hell on him just attending daily to start the torment all over again. He probably felt socially inept,no one seems to know what his upbringing situation was at home,and it seems he just kept on withdrawing from society. It is so sad that this had to happen because it seems no one at the school took any action.It must be because of all the extreme political correctness that hovers in just about all universities and the faculty. I grieve for the families and pray for them. Maybe this will wake up the schools all over the U.S. especially in the middle school level(which seems to be where it all begins with the viciousness and the taunting)to offer some type of symposium or meetings to teach cultural awareness and diversity and to respect other students for their differences. I am not trying to speak on behalf of this killer but just giving my opinion as I remember how horrible it was when I attended middle school and was laughed at daily for my clothes not meeting the student's standards(although in other countries that is not an issue with other kids)of attire,being alienated simply because I wasn't white,laughed at because I brought ethnic food to eat instead of the processed foods the school provides,taunted daily because my English was more properly spoken than the caucasian population,picked on because I didnn't know slang words,and physically harrassed because I made better grades,only spoken to and used if they needed help with their homework.I could go on with more abuse and atrocities that went on daily and it definitely has left a little wound that takes a long time to heal. This was a daily dose of what the majority of the kids that are from other countries have to put up with every day while trying to do their very best in school to maintain their high grades in an effort to get in the best schools.

According to Nationmaster.com, which has loads of data about various indices for countries, the US is #24 in murders per capita. Link here:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
Their source is as follows, per the site:
"SOURCE: Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)"

Concerned Mom: Have you since become acculturated and assimilated? Or is your English still better than ours and your ethnic food better than the 'processed' stuff the schools feed the kids? I rather suspect schoolkids didn't get served lunch at all in your country of origin and that you favor lentils.
Please just stop victimizing yourself.

The chopsticks you have placed in your ears may be the source of your problems. First, it may be hampering your ability to learn English. Second, it may let others know you are from another planet.

Ray, may I suggest an act of sexual penetration both for you and for the equine conveyance on which you arrived?

as a furrinner, I notice that you Americans really battle over the "First Amendment" rights of free speech (NBC publishing that crazy man's stuff??) and the 2d Amendment (right to bear arms (even if you are a crazy person???)

You have the greatest country in the world, BECAUSE of those amendments of yours!! Take the bad with the good and get on with it!

It's a bit disingenuous to use Scotland as a comparator. We were shocked here when this "American style" crime was visited upon Dunblane. In a country which already had tight restrictions on gun ownership, we cracked down even harder after Thomas Hamilton's violence. So far, there has been no repeat. Can you say the same about your country or are you hiding behind your statistical extrapolation to say the USA should have expected, because of its size, to have had Columbine and Virginia since Dunblane occurred?

How about acknowledging that Dunblane was a rare event in larger- populated Europe generally and not just in small-size Scotland? How about noting that other countries with high levels of gun ownership, Japan and Switzerland, have got no history of mass murder shooting or home based accidental shootings caused by the free availability of guns and a lax attitude to their storage, care and use?

You may comfort yourself with stories of high levels of personal violence being committed elsewhere in the developed world. Soccer hooliganism is fashionable every now and again and causes undue concern to U.S. citizens considering a visit to Europe. I have attended football (that's the Scottish name for soccer) matches on a weekly basis for the past 40 years or so, including visits as an away support to European venues, and have never been subject to violence nor have any of my close friends and relatives who are football fanatics. We do have a problem with knife crime here but, given the prevalence of this problem, we still have remarkably few fatalities occurring. It is, of course, easier for an unarmed group of citizens to disarm a rampaging knifeman than it would be to do likewise with a gunman.

Someone posted, in one of your earlier threads, that the tests applied to mental stability in allowing U.S. gun ownership were poor but were the only indicator with any degree of robustness in predicting who would cause damage with firearms. I think, if you applied proper statistical analysis to the factors involved between gun ownership and violence perpetrated, you would conclude that it is safe to sell a gun to a Swiss person living in Switzerland, or a Japanese person living in Japan but it is madness to sell to an American living in the USA or, to a lesser extent, a S. African in S. Africa or a Brazilian in Brazil.

More than 10 years after Dunblane, there is absolutely no appetite in Scotland for easing restrictions on gun ownership. Any universal plebiscite would favour even more moves toward restriction. We lead safer lives than you do as a result. It may be difficult to disinvent US history to help you reach this stage, but Scotland, for one, does not seek to emulate that aspect of US culture, however much we admire other aspects.

whenever a horrible travesty occurs i'm always reminded of the early christians before the last millennium--1000 ad--when they were convinced the world was ending. they walked themselves to death thru towns and the country side whipping themselves like modern muslims during a religious festival. something appears to be way down deep in our dna with this stuff. they repeated the same during the black plague years.

now we do it whenever a whack job goes nuts. the self loathing and narcissistic public displays of sympathy and recriminations are our methods. it seems the majority of us want to be on jerry springer or oprah's couch. we need to get a grip. shit happens. in fact given 300 million and counting i'm continually surprised that this doesn't happen more often. the fact that the chemical goop that flows in our brains keeps us moderately balanced for entire lifetimes is a miracle in itself.

It seems likely that violence in different societies will take varying forms according to the structure of those societies. In societies which are highly centralized and dominated by elites, state-sponsored violence is likely to be the form...in more decentralized and individualistic societies, there will be comparatively more individual acts of violence.

you would conclude that it is safe to sell a gun to a Swiss person living in Switzerland, or a Japanese person living in Japan but it is madness to sell to an American living in the USA

Vermont and New Hampshire are two of the least restrictive states when it comes to purchasing guns. Remembering even former Governor Howard Dean supports gun rights. The two states with the lowest rates of homiced using guns are also Vermont (0.48 per 100000 people) and New Hampshire (0.43).

Every set of stats on crime rates in the US I've seen indicate that the most important variable is the number of black males, not the gun laws, in a particular area. But the US, like Western Europe, is very politically correct so most would rather talk about guns and violence in entertainment.

"SCOTLAND is the most violent country in the developed world, according to a new report from the United Nations.

When murder is excluded, Scots are almost three times more likely to be the victims of assault than Americans, while England and Wales have proportionately the second highest number of attacks."

Maybe this will wake up the schools all over the U.S. especially in the middle school level(which seems to be where it all begins with the viciousness and the taunting)to offer some type of symposium or meetings to teach cultural awareness and diversity and to respect other students for their differences.

Here we go again. Make whitey feel guilty because foreigners like moving to his country. I'm a two time immigrant and I got the business at first. But if you adjust to and accept your new country you'll fit in eventually.

Besides if you think the US is difficult for an immigrant child just imagine going to race conscious countries like Korea or Japan or even Europe as a kid. I'd say the US is one of the least demanding countries in the world when it comes to what it expects from its immigrants. Yet still Concerned Mom demands even more "cultural awareness" from the host population. I guess it doesn't pay to be nice as it's interpreted in most cultures as weakness.

you would conclude that it is safe to sell a gun to a Swiss person living in Switzerland

A Swiss man shot dead 14 people at a council meeting back in September 2001. I doubt the Beeb bothered doing much reporting on that. I doubt many TV news crews are even based in Switzerland whereas every country has reporters based in the US.

Lets see now, we have Scots as being the most violent, Colorado citizens being the most violent (they have sexual fantasies about horses), wives of clergy being the most violent, individuals living in individualistic societies being the most violent, twelve year old graduates of Madrases being the most violent and finally no mention of the Al Qaeda blowing up 150 poor souls at a time.

The truth is, we are all capable of being the most violent. Each of the commenters above is capable of being the star in next weeks massacre. The only thing required is sufficient motivation.

Let's see - "When Murder is excluded" - well that's the way I prefer it. We are able to keep careful records of assaults here in Scotland, some of which will be quite minor attacks, because our police will take these issues seriously since they do not have 70 murders on their books to solve. Your police will not keep stats on minor crime because they must devote so much energy to your much higher homicide rate.

Coisty.
I did get information on the Swiss massacre. The BBC, amongst others, covered it adequately. It was still seen as an aberration in Swiss society. It has not yet become an accepted norm. Judging by the comments above, some in your society are becoming conditioned to acccept this as a recurring trend.

> I think, if you applied proper statistical analysis to the factors involved between gun ownership and violence perpetrated, you would conclude that it is safe to sell a gun to a Swiss person living in Switzerland, or a Japanese person living in Japan but it is madness to sell to an American living in the USA

It turns out that selling to the Swiss or Japanese is safe in the US as well. This suggests that gun control doesn't explain any of the differences.

Tony, you are right about murder rates being the critical difference. I will even grant that Ameria is a more violent society, as societies with more ethnic diversity and immigration tend to be. (I am for diversity, but there is a tradeoff, as with most things.)

However, in the UK the gun crime and murder rates have been on the increase since gun laws have become more restrictive, while in the same time period violent crimes in the US have been decreasing as 40 states passed laws allowing concealed carry.

In Texas, we passed our concealed carry law after the Luby's massacre of the mid-90s. There have been no public spree shootings since. Knock on wood.

So gun laws are not the answer. There will always be a few deranged individuals in any society, and citizens must be allowed to defend themselves.

As an interesting sidelight, Japan and Switzeraland have far higher suicide rates than the US or the UK. Strange, but it's almost as if the killing is bound to find an outlet of some sort.

Do I get a gold star for being the most violent? Cause I'll be the most violent if I get a gold star. I love gold stars.

When European and American pundits compare violence here to that in Europe, they're talking about a few selective bits of Europe with homogenous populations, not a comparable geographical or ethnic region.

It would be more accurate, using that scale, to compare Europe with New England. You know, the Wild West shooting gallery of, um, Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachussets and Maine.

As Roger suggests, the fact remains that over the past 100 years, the territory of the United States has seen far few violent deaths than comparable areas in Europe or Asia. And by such an extremely wide margin that it's laughable to suggest that America is somehow "more violent."

Gun control only takes weapons out of the hands of law abiding citizens. Every country has examples of deranged and evil people who have committed unspeakable crimes.

It would probably be a good idea if everyone had to take a mandatory rifle and gun class. If people knew how to handle and shoot guns, there maybe less fear about guns.

People who plan and commit these acts find a way to get weapons regardless of the law. We are kidding ourselves if we think otherwise.

Our founders knew that an unarmed citizenry was ultimately a vulnerable citizenry against government. Thus the right to bear arms. Every law abiding, non-felon should be allowed to have a gun.

By the way, the country with the worst mass killing of this type was South Korea, which has perhaps the strictest gun control laws. I believe the number was 58 dead. Whatever the reasons for Cho's fatal rampage, removing the right to own guns is not the answer.

Tony - The BBC, amongst others, covered it adequately. It was still seen as an aberration in Swiss society. It has not yet become an accepted norm.

Actually I very much doubt many in the UK can remember the Swiss massacre compared to say Columbine. Perhaps it was a one off but then again the population of Switzerland is only about 7 million rather than the 300 million in the US.

Tony - Judging by the comments above, some in your society are becoming conditioned to acccept this as a recurring trend.

My society? That's called Northern Ireland. Guns were outlawed there throughout the Troubles. Funny how they didn't reduce crime. Perhaps living in Scotland you might have heard about Northern Ireland, where almost all guns are banned, once in a while on your nightly newscasts. During the Troubles all the killers were armed to the teeth. Sadly, their victims relied entirely on government employees. Talk about a one sided fight.

The society I live in now, rural Ontario, Canada, is almost as well armed as Texas or Virginia. Crime doesn't even enter the top ten concerns of voters around here. Can you say the same about Scotland?

Yes I can say the same thing about RURAL Scotland. Let's try and keep the comparisons sensible for both sides of the argument.

Sandy P,
Yes Scotland has restrictive knife laws too. The rhetorical point you intended to make, I assume, was that such laws are bound to be ineffective when you have criminals intent on arming themselves. Well, the young people who carry knives assert that they do so "for protection". When you ask them "Protection from what", they will answer "from other knife weilding thugs". Now, the majority viewpoint in this country of decent law abiding citizens (at the risk of offending an ex- Norn Ireland man, Coisty, I long for the day that we are citizens and not subjects), is that we want that tendency reduced because the collateral damage of people reaching for knives (or guns), when they find themselves in positions of threat or when they are drunk, will be greatly reduced if there are fewer of them.

Leave the guns and knives to the criminals who feel they need them but crack down hard on them when they are caught. The rest of us will try to keep ourselves safe by judgement, avoidance, grouping together, approving legitimate police measures and continuing to disparage those who wish to arm themselves. And we will be safer than your populace by any measure of comparison you use . I am not frightened of my government or my state. Did Americans never lose that fear? The militia rights were an 18th century concept, please move on.

I accept that the prevailing view among law abiding citizens in the US is different to here. As I said earlier, it may be difficult to disinvent your history and tendency to value arms. However, there is no need nor call for Europe to emulate your views, on this issue at least.

tony - have you ever lived in the US?
i have, for half of my life.
i lived the other half in the UK.
in the US, I have seen and been threatened by far and away less violence.

The rest of us will try to keep ourselves safe by judgement, avoidance, grouping together, approving legitimate police measures and continuing to disparage those who wish to arm themselves.

I don't even usually lock my doors at night and I have lived in the United States all my life.

As to who is the most violent? It seems to me that it was not until several hundred thousand American troops were stationed in Europe that it was possible for the people of that continent to go more than 30 years without killing each other in the tens of millions.

And I own a gun. Leave me alone, and I will leave you alone. It is as simple as that tony. tony wants me to be unarmed so that if and when some murdering rapist happens upon me I will not be able to defend myself. That is good news for the rapist, bad news for me.

"I am not frightened of my government or my state. Did Americans never lose that fear? The militia rights were an 18th century concept, please move on."

You really don't get it; our government exists because of the consent of the governed. It should be more afraid of me than I am of it. Quisling isn't an American term.

After all, european govts have killed millions of their own citizens in recent memory. Nearby govts have killed 10s of millions.

No, the US govt hasn't done anything like that, but with all of the calls to become more "european like"....

And as for moving on the oldest working constitution is the constitution of Massachusetts, the second oldest is the United States constitution, both of which were written in large part by our second president John Adams. How many Eruopean countries have seen upheaval and war since these documents were written? Considering how well they have worked for us, why would we "move on"?

During the most recent period of European- based world warfare, the Republican right, Nativist, Know-Nothing, Henry Fordists tradition worked very hard at ensuring U.S. neutrality regardless of the nature of the evil threat we faced. Hitler ran a Nazi government in 1939 when war was declared by the UK. It was still Nazi in 42 when you joined in because they were friends with the Japanese who had directly atacked you. Your arms and sacrifice were not made fully available to the European Theatre until 1944. You stayed because you wanted to police the communist threat not to prevent further European bloodshed.

Many of your citizens sought European support in your Civil War but we resisted any attempt to side with the odious Richmond insurgents even though our Cotton interests were threatened. The Native American tribes and the slaves, of course, did not enjoy diplomatic relations with European states so could not seek influence in face of their genocide.

Many people in "violent" Scotland sleep in a house with unlocked doors and leave their cars in the street unlocked. My mother and father in law do so. We can exchange anecdotes all day.

You guys have a vision of Europe, including Scotland, as a place where your personal health is at more severe risk. It is a fantasy. You are at much more serious risk of violent death in peacetime USA than you would ever be in peacetime Western Europe. I'll personally accept the risk of a kick or punch from a young ned as a fair exchange against the greatly decreased risk of a bullet (unless you pass the Chris Rock amendment and allow unrestricted gun ownership but make bullets cost £10,000 so you better really want to kill because it will cost you).

By the way, I made it safe through another soccer match at an away ground today. I must be some kind of degenerate thrill seeker according to you guys to face such risks.

As for you, I hope you stay in Scotland (where I presume you live), do not emmigrate to the US and do not become a US citizen. We do not need more people here voting with your views.

Tony, you are sooooooo predictable, we were late in WWI, we were late in WWII. Slaves, Indians, yada, yada, yada. Get over it.

There's a reason for that and it wasn't just --the Republican right, Nativist, Know-Nothing, Henry Fordists tradition worked very hard at ensuring U.S. neutrality regardless of the nature of the evil threat we faced.---

We know you- meaning Europeans - there's 1000 years of history. Why do you think our ancestors left?

Sez something you guys haven't had to be back since (except for 9/11 air patrols) and spent more time killing white europeans, eh?

As to Rock's suggestion, typical - only the rich/elite and the evil - drug dealers, mob, terrorist will be able to afford to protect themselves. Leave the bourgeois, poor and the weak to be preyed upon.

And funny thing about those slaves, when they were free, their right to arm themselves was taken away. Mebbe if they could have protected themselves, the KKK might not have become as powerful???????

Miss America 1944 has a talent that likely has never appeared on a beauty pageant stage: She fired a handgun to shoot out a vehicle's tires and stop an intruder. Venus Ramey, 82, confronted a man on her farm in south-central Kentucky last week after she saw her dog run into a storage building where thieves had previously made off with old farm equipment.

Ramey said the man told her he would leave. "I said, 'Oh, no you won't,' and I shot their tires so they couldn't leave," Ramey said.

She had to balance on her walker as she pulled out a snub-nosed .38-caliber handgun......

"The Native American tribes and the slaves, of course, did not enjoy diplomatic relations with European states so could not seek influence in face of their genocide."

Speaking of genocide, particularly in the here and now, Bosnia wasn't exactly a profile in courage for Europe. Although you disarmed the victims effectively.

Speaking of genocide most of the natives of South and Central America were killed by the Spanish. And when it comes to slavery I doubt very much if the original inhabitants of Haiti were French speaking blacd people.

The truth is our history, is your history. I have ancestors who walked the Trail of Tears. I also have ancestors who fought in the American Revolution and were descnded from British settlers. I also have ancestors who came here to escape famine in Ireland and political persecution and war in Germany. That is America tony, the first settlers to come here and push the natives out of the way were Europeans and the first settlers to bring African slaves to this hemisphere were Europeans. To modern Europeans of today we became Americans when we began to act in ways you don't approve of, whether there was even such a place as the United States at the time or not.

We are you to a great extent. My Uncle Robert lived his whole life in pain from a Nazi slug that could not be removed from his body. His Uncle fought in France in WW1. So spare me the self righteous moralizing.

Don't you just love the faith that Europeans have in their government? Makes me wonder just what century they are living in.

Not to worry, their "government" will still manage to kill many more of their own citizens than all the crazies combined in the U.S., with their awful gun culture.

Thanks anyway folks, but I will choose to defend myself and not depend on you or anyone else!

Meanwhile, the European elite are handing over the continent to the Islamists and they are too sophisticated and nuanced to even see it happening.

The Islamic neighborhoods are so dangerous in France, the police don't even want to go there. Do you think they may have a few guns? (let's hope that's all they have.) Dar al-Islam. Dar al-Har.

But that's okay. Maybe America will come and save Europe again. Who knows! How many lost?

If that scenario play out again, the Europeans will probably thank us again at first, then tolerate us and finally be outright hostile when the generational shift takes place. This probably describes France the best.

Roger, I see the site hasn't moved on much in the last few years. No humility learned from another lost war. The wagons still circle when under attack.

I haven't noticed the Islamic takeover here- Fox News and this site will tell you that I'm sleepwalking in history- but it's the only news source which will. I'll still believe that they and all the Murdoch empire are lying nutters.

Sandy P- any idea of the reason you had been there before 20 years before? There was no battle between good and evil in WW 1, just colonial powers vying for supremacy. The US remained neutral until its shipping routes were being unduly threatened. It amassed a fortune in arms trading during WW 1. The US did not achieve a break through in that crazy war but the Germans collapsed anyway. Care to venture an idea why Veracruz happened while you're at it.

I'll sign off now as I did before. This is not anti-Americanism. The USA contains more of value than the flag stealing Republican right. The poor souls who died at Virginia Tech deserve better and , unfortunately, so will the other souls who will suffer for your gun sickness. I pray and hope that the USA gets back to core values it had during its hardship years in the 20's and 30's. It will again shine a light to the world.

Speaking of arrogant you really should learn a little humility. You are obnoxious and condescending.

And I am not a Republican. However, I don't think we have lost another war as you say and while you might earn the good old days when Saddam Hussein used children for target practice and the Iraqis had no hope for a future while the hypocrites of Europe sold security council votes for oil....I prefer to think that perhaps there is life after tyranny. You on the other hand prefer to make judgments about strangers and yammer about losing another war.

At least we managed to do something the Scots never did, we became our own country. Tell George Galloway I said Hi.

A dimension of the Euro-American debate about American gun-ownership which intrigues me is simply this: why do we have it at all? I don't mean that flippantly. I seriously wonder.

Our policies surrounding trade, foreign policy, the enivironoment, etc, directly effect citizens of other nations, but there is no question whatsoever of a US citizen packing a handgun into Europe and claiming it to be their right under the Second Amendment. So why are Europeans in general so passionate about something which realistically doesn't effect them at all?

It seems me that very idea of America has exerted a kind of oppressive force on the European psyche (since de Tocqueville if not before) which leads them to compulsively and eternally strive to make us over in their image and bring us back under their sway.

I'm not saying that the specific things they'd like to change about us are always misguided, but the obsession--even the obsession about things which have nothing to do with them--is almost eerie. Calling Doctor Freud...

>I haven't noticed the Islamic takeover here- Fox News and this site will tell you that I'm sleepwalking in history- but it's the only news source which will. I'll still believe that they and all the Murdoch empire are lying nutters.

Is Channel Four a bunch of lying nutters as well, Tony? Did you watch their recent documentary going undercover in UK mosques? You can believe whatever you like, obviously. But if you're interested in the truth, why not skip all the media sources and go straight to the horse's mouth? Check out MEMRI and you can read translations of what Islamists around the world are saying to the Muslim world as opposed to what they say to everyone else. Maybe you'll still be able to believe what makes you feel comfortable, but by denying reality, you'll be a lying nutter yourself.

Tony has been spending too much being brainwashed by the BBC to know what the truth is anyway.

BTW, I rarely watch any TV news including Fox and I get my information from a lot of sources. In fact I am sure I am exposed to a lot more diverse points of view than someone from Scotland who can not even watch Fox without the vapers.

But I don't think that Fox invented or made up the terror attacks in London. Nor do I think they created the recent arrests in Britain of more young terrorists planning attacks on innocent people.

The question is not whether I believe in a Muslim takeover. I think that is unlikely to the point of impossible here in the United States, but I do think there are dangerous Islamic extremists out there with the desire to do harm to others. At least that is what they themselves say.

As for a takeover in Britain, I would say their best chance of that is to keep having babies while the traditional Brits refuse to. Demographics are a bitch.

They are morally superior and can not mind their own damn business that is why. They can pander to the likes of Saddam Hussein and Yasar Arafat, but heaven forbid I should own a shotgun.

"Roger, I see the site hasn't moved on much in the last few years. No humility learned from another lost war. The wagons still circle when under attack."

Yet you feel the need to hector us with your brilliance. I'm sure you can find some kindred entities on other sites like Kos and DU that are still whining about the fall of the Soviet Union. Maybe you can urge them to "please move on" unless, of course, you share their bruised feelings. In any case close the door on the way out and maybe Roger will let you know if your insight is ever needed in the future. If not, please be a stranger.

You will be delighted to learn Americans don't look East anymore, we're focusing on the South and West - even Joschka Fischer learned that recently.

He's teaching at Princeton, got a clue and either wrote about it or gave a speech recently.

"It's actually quite amazing that the American people have been so tolerant of the relentless European assault on American core values. The attempt to establish government as supreme at the expense of individual liberty is especially grating (free speech, the right to keep and bear arms, etc) and the very negative portrayal of Americans who hold such rights and privileges dear does not go unnoticed. Europeans can do as they please, but when they try to impose their values on Americans, the line is crossed. They're forgetting most of us were escaping constraints, limits on opportunity, serfdom, and oppression when we left for the New World. And you want to re-impose that elitist crap on us? Hmmm. It doesn't compute. We really don't understand the European affinty for living under someone else's control - be it a king, dictator, or nanny state."

You will be delighted to learn Americans don't look East anymore, we're focusing on the South and West - even Joschka Fischer learned that recently.

He's teaching at Princeton, got a clue and either wrote about it or gave a speech recently.

As to muslim takeover of the USA - has anyone read John Conyer's bill he's been trying to get passed for a couple of years??????

Let's make sure that I got this correct. European govts killed millions of their citizens because the US refused to get involved soon enough?

Is Tony really arguing that said govts would have been better if they'd been stopped sooner? (Yes, they'd have killed fewer people, but surely murderous intent counts for something.)

Note the acknowledgement that the Euros couldn't handle their own problems even then, when Europe was dominant.

Yes, the US did occupy Germany mostly to keep the USSR out. Feel free make us laugh by arguing that the Russians are teddy bears, but it's still the case that the US occupation is the longest period of peace in Europe since the Romans left. (Hmm - there's a pattern there.)

We'd be happy if you could just keep out of trouble. I hope that you're correct about your new Islamic friends, but if you aren't, I hope that you're as capable in war and ethnic cleansing as your ancestors because I don't see why we'd come to your help again.

"Roger, I see the site hasn't moved on much in the last few years. No humility learned from another lost war. The wagons still circle when under attack."

Why do I think that "moved on" is a Freudian slip? Tony, I'll save space and cut to the chase: I hope that you are a disingenious troll from the left--because I hate to be reminded that people can be that stupid.

Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt says that he believes that Finland and Sweden are moving at the same pace toward a closer relationship with NATO.

"We have not discussed the matter, but it is my forecast that we will move at the same pace", Bildt told reporters when he met with Finland's Minister for Foreign Affairs, Ilkka Kanerva, who visited Stockholm on Friday.....

The Norwegians have recently re-classified the Russkies as a threat to national security, and now Sweden and Finland are jumping on the collective security bandwagon. And they're opting for a NATO, not EU, solution, too.

I pray and hope that the USA gets back to core values it had during its hardship years in the 20's and 30's. It will again shine a light to the world.

Interesting how Tony, and others like him, seem to think America only exhibits its "core values" when it's supine - hobbled by hardship, weak, appropriately subservient, and humbled by "troubles."

Well Americans owned guns in the 20's and 30's, in fact that is when Al Capone and his friends were carrying on crime wars in major cities. Oh yes, the happy days of the Saint Valentine Day's Massacre, the Dust Bowl and the Great Depression.

Over at Winds of Change, Donald Sensing asks if we have grown more violent, and the answer is not really. We are actually at about half the rate we had in the 20's and 30's, so what's up with that, Tony? Be careful what you wish for.

Oh, and a great Tom Wolfe quote for those Euroweenies that have the vapors about the US, "... the dark night of fascism is always descending on the US, but always seems to land in Europe".

This is an example of how racist, speciesist and violent this country has become.

--I pray and hope that the USA gets back to core values it had during its hardship years in the 20's and 30's. It will again shine a light to the world.--

If we finally agree, after 230 years, that their way is the proper way, it'll show that we like them, we really like them.

April 20, 2007: How violent is the USA?

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