Roger L. Simon: Paris Sadness

As the unrest continues to escalate (not too rapidly, thankfully) in France - 349 arrested last night, some 1300 cars torched - I received another email from Paul Cruce, the American cooking student in Paris. Let me make clear what should be obvious: I do not know Paul and cannot vouch for anything he says. In fact, my own rather extensive experience with Paris and the French does not always jibe with his (his previous email more than this one). But still I thought this report worth quoting in its entirety --

I am absolutely astounded at the failure of this government to attack the problem of the riots. I don't see it as being primarily an issue of religion, but a turf war by drug criminals, who happen to be of muslim extraction. But the failure of the government to nip this in the bud has now opened the door for players who do have a religious agenda. Mid-week I was cautiously optimistic about the situation. Now I'm very pessimistic. It's time to come home and implement "Plan B."

UPDATE: The invaluable No Pasaràn describes the demonization of Nicolas Sarkozy. (via astute blogger)

MORE: Clive Davis, writing from the UK, is concerned the American Blogosphere is going overboard with its premature talk of a French Intifada. He has some interesting links to French blogs as well. And, of course, the Australian blogosphere has their views.

Comments

Comments require registration through TypeKey. Abusive remarks may be deleted. Opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of Roger Simon.

Roger, I lived in Geneva for a year a ways back and have been back to France twice. I have been lectured by Parisians about being American (evil incarnate or some such). But the rest of the country always was friendly and had nothing but nice things to say about America and Americans (we are the best tippers and have a rep for being thoughtful with the help). Over the last three years I have noticed an influx of mostly French women here in NE Connecticut. Of course it may mean nothing, but given todays events one wonders.

I recognize that when the state fails to properly use the way it is organised to the benefit of its citizens, it is very broken. France does not have a Federal system.

The reason France has had the luxury of not having to be a strongly centralized government is because they have relied for TOO LONG on NATO and the US to do the military defense for them. Military is a centralized force -you cannot protect a country through a loosely knit organization of police or some such nonsense.

Chirac has been more interested in being ruler of the EU and countering America's efforts than governing his own country.

THe French are notoriously indecisive right down to not being able to decide what form of government they should have. They bounce around from democracy-La Liberte, to Socialism and I happen to think the current favorite Royalty.

Chirac was so busy trying to establish himself as King of the EU/ UN that he neglected his first responsibility preservation of the state. He forgot what state that was-

Paul Cruce seems well-informed, writes good descriptive sentences and seems credible. With all these arrests, what's the action of the prosecutor at time of arraignment; does he keep these "thugs" in jail on some type of a five or seven hold or give them bond. I am not sure of the French criminal process. I have been on the RER from DeGaulle Airport frequently, his desciptions fit. The rail line cuts through the northeast Paris suburbs and runs very close to the banlieus. It's inexplicable that the French police are not patrolling the trains.

Muslims probe constantly thru raids. IIRC, even their conquests of Sicily and Spain each started out as a raid. Raids are,amomg other things, a way of probing for weakness.

Osama was similar, probing US defences and testing its will by escalating his attacks, culminating in 9-11. It's a very linear approach, and Bush's non-linear response caught him completely off-guard.

Now, the attacks in Paris, in the rest of France, and elsewhere in Europe are slowly, gradually escalating, testing as they go.

First one area, then others as well, then into the heart of Paris. First property attacks, then people. The linear increase will continue until it meets non-linear resistance.

All it takes, culturally, to encourage this approach is a combination of belligerence and opportunism.

the 3ème is not slums. As you probably know, along with the 4ème, and together they make up le Marais, the swamp, which the land underneath once was. There are many lovely old homes built in the 17th and 18th centuries in the 3ème which once housed Paris's finest families. For the rioting to break out in the 3ème shows me that the government has yet to get a grip on the seriousness of this.

This is not accurate. The best US analogy for Le Marais is New York's Lower East Side.

Le Marais is indeed full of beautiful old buildings but it has until very recently been known as, if not a slum, a tough working class neighborhood similar to London's East End. Historically Le Marais was (to some extent still is) the home of Paris's jewish artisan class and during the last century attracted many poor jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe. Since the early 1990s it has gentrified rapidly, especially due to an influx of middle-class gays and some celebrity types, who have fixed up the decaying but beautiful medieval and renaissance-era buildings and attracted all sorts of galleries and shops. It's now a major tourist destination; on any weekend the Rue des Rosiers is so crowded it will take you five minutes to walk a block.

Alexis De Touqueville wrote about France's centralized government. In Democracy in America, he recounts how Americans in small towns go together to solve their own problems. If a bridge needed fixing, the town elders would simply get together and fix it. In France, the people would wait for months and months for an official from Paris to show up and figure out what to do. The French helplessness is a learned thing that has been ingrained in their culture for a very long time.

What's astonishing is that all this is happening in Paris, the seat of all authority.

This is not accurate. The best US analogy for Le Marais is New York's Lower East Side.

However there remain projects nearby, closer to the Bastille, and plenty of poor residents who cause petty crime in the area. As with the gentrified Lower East Side, which abuts the hellhole of Alphabet City, it's false to say that this neighborhood is totally safe and middle-class. The fact that incidents of rioting have occurred in the 3eme does not indicate anything in particular.

Really, the hyperbole here is ridiculous. The rioting in France still, even after a week and a half, has not claimed as many deaths as a typical Detroit victory celebration. Judged by any measure-- loss of life, injuries, property damage-- the destruction wrought by these riots is trivial next to what occurred in LA in 1992, or Detroit in 1967, or Brixton in south London in 1981 (?), or Cincinatti or Benton Harbor or Crown Heights or....

Folks, get a grip. This story isn't even top of fold in France. The story here is not the destruction of France or the next "intifada." These are unemployed, dumb, ruddlerless, leaderless black French kids setting cars on fire.

The fact that we Americans have the right to bear arms, granted by the U.S. Constitution's 2nd Amendment, is most comforting in these times. And I have not been hearing the normal barking by the European elites about our gun culture this week.

More on Le Marais, for the curious: http://www.parismarais.com/le-marais-guide/jewish-marais-rue-des-rosiers/

I'm corrected: the story was not top of fold today in Le Monde yesterday; is today.

The Existential Riots - I riot, therefore I am
"It's not a political revolution or a Muslim revolution," said Rezzoug. "There's a lot of rage. Through this burning, they're saying, 'I exist, I'm here.'"

I do agree with thibaud's comments.......up to a point. If these were african or Asian lower class slum riots akin to newark and watts thibaud would be right on the money. what influences the other commenters is that they also are predominately moslem Most of the comments thibaud is replying to have jumped ahead to what the writers perceive to be the next round. And that is a real worry. We know how
the islamists like to use incidents of "humiliation" and "massacres" to recruit others to their cause around the world. We haver seen that before and the concern is that the French rioting will spread and become a cause celebre for the islamists. I, for one, am surprised that we havent as yet seen the hand of radicals in these riots. Credit the French is having cleared out some of the fundamentalist imams and replacing them with "government approved" issue. And we h ave seen reports of deportations and arrests from france recently. It seems that in their own war on terror, the French security forces have infiltrated and identified a bunch of potential bad actors. It wouldnt surprise me to find out that a series of arrests were made by the french security force of suspected islamists, in the past week.
All that having been said, the situation is still very explosive if a forceful halt to the rioting doesnt occur today. How long before an act of real violence occurs is in the hands of the islamists. We have seen how they provoke violence in order to have an armed conflict with the authorities. Arab deaths become the next cause to create riots in France and other sympathetic arab ghettoes in western europe.

For black humor in a bad situation, I highly recommend Craig Smith's article in the NYT "France Has an Underclass, but Its Roots Are Still Shallow"

designed to explain to the confused NYT reader why a couple of thousand molotov cocktails doesn't mean that there is any need to revise the view that France is self-evidently a superior country to the United States.

You will learn that American racial problems are the product of centuries, and are therefore intractable; but French racial problems are recent, and therefore minor.

"Even so, France is still low on the curve toward developing an entrenched, structural underclass - one that could breed extremism and lasting social problems.

So far, while hundreds of cars and buses have been burned and dozens of businesses destroyed in violence that has spread to a dozen towns, most rioters appear to be teenage boys bent more on making the news than making a coherent political statement."

So, nothing to see here, move along, move along - nothing that can't be solved with a few affirmative action problems.

The refusal to aknowledge or examine any of the other MORE legitimate factors precipitating these riots is truly stupifying and I agree with just about all of thibaud's comments on this-

I lived in Paris for awhile in 1991 (well, actually Suresne), but not enough to know the names of all the areas (I was spending most of my time working).

I find the reporting on these events to be as frustrating as the reporting on most other events - they don't have any maps!

Too often the press puts out these stories, naming various areas, but doesn't provide any maps.

So I don't know if any of these events happened near where I used to live (2 towns S of La Defense) or on the routes I used to take. Annoying to say the least.

It is ironic that these riots happened just as I was finishing "The West's Last Chance" which discusses at length the radical Muslim issue - primarily in Europe.

Although these riots don't seem to have any coherent political messages, they do tell the radical leaders that they could easily stage riots in order to demand, for example, Sharia law in the Muslim enclaves.

As far as the press painting the etiology of the riots being poverty, they are wrong. These folks are unemployed, but in the socialist paradise of France, they have money. The real problem is that they are unassimilated, intentionally ghettoized by the government, and subject to extremist Islamofascist influences, and have plenty of time on their hands since they don't have to work. The combination is very dangerous.

BTW, we had a report here a few days ago of riots in another European country (Denmark?). No reports in the press. Does anyone know if these riots are also outside of France?

I don't think next year's parade down the Champs-Elysee will be nearly as organized as the one in '40...

You are wonderfully rational, well traveled, and informed. But I think you are beginning to slip into denial. I, on the other hand, am a simple minded soul who noticed as a child that weakness invites attack and exploitation. As an adult, I see little evidence that the same principle doesn't hold on a larger scale. Nor do I dismiss property destruction and the fear and insecurity this will spread among the French as an event of no import. Confined to the banlieue it can be ignored, when it spreads to middleclass areas it matters. Civilization depends on order, government must supply security, if not economic security, then at least physical security. If it fails the last it has failed its most important justification. We shall see, but I think that there will be major psychological changes among the bon citoyen.

Yes, up to a point. People who convey an impression in attempting to come to terms with what is occurring in France, at some proximate and tentative level, are not stating conclusions or drawing an exact historical parallel, e.g., with Kristallnacht or even an intifada, the latter being much more apropos. No one is saying OBL, Zawahiri, Ahmadinejad or even someone like a Tariq Ramadan is calling the shots from "Riot Central" in the 1st arrondisement. People are well aware of the tentative quality of any inferences they might draw. On the other hand the notion this is simply, and solely, a result of standard socio-economic causes is a dubious claim. Bare minimum, why should anyone accept such a claim, which is itself far from a tentative assessment.

Can people make too much about this? Yes, it's too early to draw sum certain, definitive conclusions - but they can make too little of it as well and simply dismissing this as standard socio-economic discontent is unpresuasive for most people, as it should be. For example, many of the malcontents are 1st or 2nd generation North African Muslims who emigrated voluntarily. If they were simply disaffected, they could return, again voluntarily, they weren't brought over in slave ships four or five generations ago.

However, Tariq Ramadan (and similar high profile promulgators of European Muslim interests) is someone worth a review relative to this discontent in France. But not to worry thibaud, that too is a tentative assessment. Excerpt: "Paul Landau notably rejects Gilles Kepel's optimistic thesis according to which the Islamist ideology will find itself 'diluted...in the market economy' ...".

No, the shots fired at people are real, as was the torching of the disabled woman, and the many deliberate injuries. This is indeed an ongoing escalation.

One does not need a master strategist to be behind it in order for it to be dangerous; that was the point of my comment that all it takes is belligerence plus opportunism, two characteristics already in place. Think of them as agent behaviors in an emergent system, if you're into that sort of analysis. Limits are being tested, and when weak, pushed back. There is nothing new to this in Islamic culture.

This is not a civil war by economic class. True, Islamic culture, with its overly hierarchical nature and contempt for the other creates its own economic problems, so the two are correlated, but it is important to identify which is the cause and which the effect. Not many employers - esp in a socialist paradise where it's harder to fire than to hire - want to take in an employee whose deepest beliefs encourage him to despise you as an infidel.

Worldwide, a religious culture that teaches young men to view others as despicable inferiors and to treat them as such seems to be having trouble getting along with its neighbors wherever they meet. That should not be a surprise. The problem has its taproot in religion.

The Islamists at, shall we say, a higher level than the street thugs, have both belligerence and opportunism to spare. They will treat the current uprising as a probing for weakness whether the participants originally intended it as such or not. And seeing weakness - kinda hard not to - they will push to escalate it to their own purpose.

There is nothing in Islamic culture that I know of which would encourage moderation and compassion to non-Muslims. Quite the opposite. It will escalate till forcibly stopped.

"In France, the people would wait for months and months for an official from Paris to show up and figure out what to do. The French helplessness is a learned thing that has been ingrained in their culture for a very long time."

thibaud's very reasonable caution and skepticism is well expressed in statements like this:

These are unemployed, dumb, ruddlerless, leaderless black French kids setting cars on fire....

("Dumb" is perhaps a bit harsh. I might prefer "poorly educated." But it is kinder than "thugs," Sarko's descriptor.)

One deranged observer is puzzled by the selective use of the term "Muslim" in another article by the NYT reporter Craig S. Smith, who was cited above.

I don't deny that Islam is a related, background factor here, but no one who has any grasp of contemporary French reality, or even the simple, incontrovertible facts of recent events in the French projects, would seriously argue that it is the main story.

Again, the Katrina/MSM analogy is apt. For the New York-based MSM, the grand Meme of Memes is the incompetence and wickedness of the Bush administration and the red staters' inability to grasp the threat that the evil Bushies represent. For the Pajamas crowd, the grand Meme of Memes is the Islamist threat and the multi-culti and Euro left's inability to come to terms with that threat.

When a story arises that seems to-- emphasis on seems-- fit the Grand Meme, the tocsin is sounded and the troops spring into action. Thus for the MSM, a natural disaster that exposes the complete sinkhole--moral, political and otherwise-- that is New Orleans and Lousiana government somehow is transformed into the infuriating spectacle of the heartlessness, indifference and incompetence of ... the Bush administration.

Likewise, a set of wave of torchings of cars by unemployed african kids in France is transformed into a chilling cautionary tale about Europe's cluelessness and incompetence in the face of ... the Islamist threat. As in the MSM case, conclusions precede fact-gathering, bloviating is substituted for analysis, and a mix of dire predictions, gloating and schadenfreude colors every account.

Is this what Pajamas is really all about? I thought the idea was to instruct and improve upon the MSM, not become its anti-jihadist alter ego.

He said that it is because the French are prejudice. You know they can sometimes barely stand French Candians-so check again.

He said that the Algerians and Morroccans immigrated at once-this was encouraged by the French because they didn't want to do the work and a large part of the reason was because they were told that they would be temporary workers. When you import a large monlithic homogenous group that can rely on each other rather than the quota system of balancing ethnic groups used by the US after WW I and II then the assimiliation of the culture becomes less necessary for survival. The fault for that goes to France. They are responsible for how their government is run.

thibaud has never said that this is NOT the fault of the French-he said that it is primarily their fault.

Jamie - perhaps you have a different view, but in my book, torching cars is stupid. Especially when they belong to other poor people living in your neighborhood. If the goal is to strike at the establishment by destroying cars, then a non-dumb action would be to take the Metro to the XVIeme or XVIIeme and torch a jaguar or a mercedes.

Actually, Jamie, thanks for bringing this up. The fact that thousands of cars are being torched-- mostly by, it appears, copycatters-- underscores how completely unguided, pointless, and leaderless this behavior is. In other words, utterly devoid of direction by any Islamist.

I have an opinion, but will remain open to changing it based on evidence. If the story here really is just about disaffected kids in France, and not about Islam - both the religion per se and the culture around it - then there should be counter examples elsewhere with which to compare.

Perhaps I have simply not yet seen the evidence that has convinced you. Which examples of successful Muslim integration do you find most persuasive when contrasted with the French approach, and why?

Jamie - perhaps you have a different view, but in my book, torching cars is stupid.

So? Establishing power on your own turf is pointless? Precedent matters not? I think you are suffering from a lack of imagination and empathy here.

Fair enough. I haven't hung around here much and could well be missing some context. But it's a big site; could you point out a key comment/thread or two? Thx.

I'd say this story represents a turning point for Pajamas and the anti-jihadist blogosphere: are you folks more interested in gathering facts, putting them in proper context, and then applying informed, intelligent analysis to those facts? Or is the game here simply to create an All Anti-Jihad, All The Time network?

I'm not casting doubt on the business wisdom of the latter-- after all, LGF is vastly more entertaining than, say, the New Republic, and probably has greater economic value for an investor. But what is it, exactly, you're trying to achieve?

I tend to agree with you about the current rioting, but I think the separation between 'real' French and the immigrants started with the French and now is the desire of the immigrants as well. (The youth among them, I should clarify. The older folk just want to get out but can't.)

I am a military dependent. I am aware of Muslims doing invaluable work in highly needed specialties in the Air Force-which is what I can speak to. Translation, interpretation of data, and highly needed specialties in the medical fields.

Making this statement at LGF that moderate Muslims are going to be invaluable to winning the War On Terror got me labeled as a "terrorist lover" and I was bullied right off the site.

I notice the strain on the Muslim-American Air Force officers-it is palpable. On September 10th the eve of the first anniversary of 9/11 I was talking with a contractor of Muslim religion working for the AF. The subject of 9/11 came up and he simply said-

Now I'd tell you he said it with tears but no he said it with an extreme dejection, fatigue and depression like he didn't even have the energy for that.

I am going to push back on sweeping generalizations and prejudice because I know better and I know what it is doing to these guys and their families.

I think Thibaud and the "new intifada" crowd are both right and talking past each other. I don't think the mainspring of the violence is Islamist teaching, but I also don't think this is something that can be brushed off. The problem is France has not responded in any useful, effective way to these riots which, as has been repeatedly pointed out, have not killed anone (yet). This begs the question of what they would do if people *had* died. If it is all molotov cocktails, why haven't they been able to handle the situation? If the rioters do bring out weapons, can we really expect to see a crackdown or will the police retreat even further? Failing to regain control shows a severe weakness which is likely to be exploited by the radical Islamic elements that exist there.

And if the violence is only caused by economic disparity, why on Earth destroy nursery schools?

I'd say this story represents a turning point for Pajamas and the anti-jihadist blogosphere:

What pajamas media? I haven't a clue what pajamas is nor what its members think. All that I see here are commenters at Roger's place. Seems to me that you have slipped into overgeneralized grandiloquent pronouncements driven by sheer frustration that we don't take your opinions as the God given final word on reality. I think few of us here claim to be prophets, but we needn't shut up on that account.

Thibaud, the difference between, say, a Detroit championship and what's happening in France is the difference between a fast/hot fire with little fuel and a smouldering fire in a dry forest loam. When some tipping point is reached (if it's reached before it burns itself out) the results could be nationally catastrophic.

That's just an instinctual feel, but hey; when Watts burned, it was just Watts (bad as that was). This seems to be jumping local boundaries in a very disturbing way.

medawaskan's description of the American/Muslim military guy is affecting, and I think most of us can sympathise with a person caught in such terrible situation.

But the lines are being drawn. The West didn't even notice those lines, until 9/11. And now, we MUST see them and live with them, as that American Muslim military guy must live with them. In many of today's Euro ghettos, people are taking up the Muslim religion in order to avoid abuse they must live with as The Infidel. They did so throughout the Middle East back in the day; and in the Balkans more recently.

The French government, being corrupt and foolish, thought, by having meetings and isolating these bothersome people and putting some of their "leaders" on the govt payroll, and having meetings - it thought it could manage the 'problem' bureaucratically.

Well, that approach has failed. And throughout the world, wherever Islam reigns, there is poverty and ignorance... and an aggressive stance towards MY CIVILIZATION'S weakness.

Look at the world as it now is. I honour your understanding of the tragedy of all this, medawaskan, but you cannot make the world be a nicer place by sympathizing with the hardship faced by the Muslim world. We are indeed in a war of civilization, and as time goes on, more and more rapidly, you have to pick the side you are on.

No one's died yet? Are we sure? I thought someone was kicked to death in front of his family early on.

An acquaintance of mine -- French, currently resident in North Africa -- sent a long post about the French riots to an email group I belong to. It is a fascinating post, but much too long to paste here. I did think, though, that the following passage would interest NRO readers, so with his permission, I pass it on. It is from a passage headed: "Why an Intifada in France?" It is among a long list of reasons given as answers to the question. "The Iraq war: as I had noticed very strongly in Tunisia a little more than 2 years ago, the opposition of France to intervention in Iraq has been perceived as a sign of weakness, and French are since considered as Dhimmis. The change of attitude from Arabs against French has been dramatic: now I know problems of security in Tunisia, and even in the French planes to go and come from there, and in Nice (French Riviera) Airport! This opposition, probably motivated by the money earned in Oil For Terror program and by threats from Saudi Arabia and Iran, has marked the end of France as a Western country (whatever one thinks about the Iraq war per se!)."

Posted by: Bad Cat Robot at November 6, 2005 11:06 AM "I think Thibaud and the "new intifada" crowd are both right and talking past each other. I don't think the mainspring of the violence is Islamist teaching, but I also don't think this is something that can be brushed off. The problem is France has not responded in any useful, effective way to these riots which, as has been repeatedly pointed out, have not killed anone (yet). This begs the question of what they would do if people *had* died. If it is all molotov cocktails, why haven't they been able to handle the situation? If the rioters do bring out weapons, can we really expect to see a crackdown or will the police retreat even further? Failing to regain control shows a severe weakness which is likely to be exploited by the radical Islamic elements that exist there."

The robot lady hits it on the head. Thibaud is correct about the background. We have all read countless articles over the past few years stating exactly what he says. Similar articles about the Arab countries talk about poverty, high birth rates, unemployment, fundamentalists, etc. All these articles say or imply a "tinderbox" "cauldron" "ticking time bomb"
So, thibaud is not wrong about his position.
Now, as the Cat Robot says, people are talking past each other. One group can now discuss how to correct past mistakes. Of course, it is really up to the French and others from the Euro-Arab Dialogue to take action. The other group on here can discuss the implications of the rioting vis a vis the ongoing spread of islamist cultural warfare. Both groups have validity.

The rioting in France still, even after a week and a half, has not claimed as many deaths as a typical Detroit victory celebration.

So, er, these riots have been bring people back from the grave? Because it's hard to have fewer than zero deaths, the number in a typical Detroit victory celebration (see, oh, 1989, 1997, 1998, 2002, 2004).

And maybe we have a bit of self-pity. Sorry, I too know Muslims. Some deny that 9/11 was carried out by Muslims and point to Israel, some almost break into tears at their humiliation even as they enjoy the wealth of being American citizens. But by and large, I think most Muslims in this country are fine citizens, not ranting radicals or unpatriotic jihadis. But I also knew a Japanese whose family was interned in California; he hitchhiked across the country as a teenager, joined up on the east coast, and fought in Italy. Life isn't all roses all the time nor does love always fall from the heavens like the gentle dew.

I said that Islamic teaching itself is, in effect, a very tribalistic approach that teaches contempt for the other. Would you dispute that?

I further thinkl that when a whole culture is primarily Islamic, this comes thru very clearly, as there is no counterbalance to it.

That does not mean that there are NO moderate Muslims. Of course there will be some, because not everyone believes everything they are taught. But I bet you will find a far greater percentage of Muslim moderates amongst Muslim populations who are a tiny minority in their culture/neighborhood than you will when they are present in greater numbers. Can you cite a counter-example?

Like-minded groups tend to reinforce and extend their philosophy to more extreme points, almost as if it were a game of one-upmanship. This has happened, apparently, in France, but the basic teachings of Islam are nonetheless at the root.

If Islam itself were inherently moderate, there would be many examples of successful integration of large Muslim minorities into other cultures. Which of those successes do you find most persuasive? Are there any?

I said that Islamic teaching itself is, in effect, a very tribalistic approach that teaches contempt for the other. Would you dispute that?

I further thinkl that when a whole culture is primarily Islamic, this comes thru very clearly, as there is no counterbalance to it.

"Soon, dozens of angry young men came from the soulless high-rises looking for cops to fight and cars to burn on streets named, as it happens, after heroes of French culture: boulevard Emile Zola, allee Albert Camus, rue Picasso. Dead white men. "It's Baghdad here," the rioters shouted."

"The rioting in France still, even after a week and a half, has not claimed as many deaths as a typical Detroit victory celebration."

Thibaud — remind us again why you're qualified to lecture us on racial tolerance?

the fellow at www.brusselsjournal.com has a new and informative column, describing the Tragedy of Europe:

".... It is possible to share the same culture with someone from a different race, but not with someone from a fundamentally different religion. The demographic data clearly show who is likely to win the impending European civil war. As in the Netherlands, where more people are currently moving out of the country than into it, one can expect a French exodus in the near future. Those who will be leaving France are those who fear that their future is looking bleak, and they are not the Muslims in the suburbs...."

I myself am planning a trip to Rome within 4 years, because I think that those marvellous cathedrals (empty of Christians now) will become (like Justinian's Hagia Sophia) mosques. I want to see some of them before that happens.

"the 3ème is not slums. As you probably know, along with the 4ème, and together they make up le Marais, the swamp, which the land underneath once was. There are many lovely old homes built in the 17th and 18th centuries in the 3ème which once housed Paris's finest families. For the rioting to break out in the 3ème shows me that the government has yet to get a grip on the seriousness of this."

Thibuad, you began by picking on this description of the area, saying it was inaccurate. What you said only reinforced (to me) his last sentence: "government has yet to get a grip on the seriousness of this"

To say, as you did, that these disturbances aren't even big news in France is to reinforce the sentence further.

*****
When mobs have committed arson for ten nights running in widely separate areas, and have set fire to a disabled woman in a wheelchair, I think hyperbole is much not out of line. If you are not highly, highly alarmed, you've grown too accustomed to danger.

More from Brussels Journal: the "youth" are not rioting because they want INTO Western Society. The 'youth' hates Western Society, and despises it as Dhimmi. We have to understand the Muslim mindset WHEN IT RUNS THINGS.

Anyway, to quote www.brusselsjournal.com:
"...Dyab Abou Jahjah, the young and charismatic Brussels-based leader of the Arab European League, rejects assimilation and demands segregated schools and self-governing, Arab-speaking ghettos. “We reject integration when it leads to assimilation,” Jahjah says: “I don’t believe in a host country. We are at home here and whatever we consider our culture to be also belongs to our chosen country. I’m in my country, not the country of the [Westerners].”

To paraphrase Gandalf's advice to Frodo: we cannot decide when we live, we can only decide HOW to live in the time we have....

Christopher Dickey is an idiot. As it happens, his father was a distinguished American poet, who may or may not have served on a bomber in WW II (Dickey was an exact contemporary of my dad, who did so serve, but as a trainer of flight engineers.)

Christopher Dickey's father could be described as a "dead white man," just as Sappho could be described as a "dead Greek woman."

Sometimes our choice of descriptive terms says more about us than about what we are describing.

Yes, there are moderate muslims. They may approve/disapprove or be neutral about what the ones who act out are doing. But they do not act out themselves.

They are not forcing themselves down our throats. They're just living their lives.

But they are not the ones with political power. Until Iraq. Until Lebanon. We know damn well the majority of muslims in Iraq are not into this jihad stuff, nor interested in taking over the world for their faith.

And I believe most of the immigrants living around Paris are like that too. Time will tell if they have any kind of power themselves to reject the Islamists or the Taliban-like rule the Islamists want to impose on them. Which has already happened to a great extent. They may be totally powerless to stop it.

We're dealing with two very different situations here. The Middle East and Europe. Because of Iraq, the Middle East has a chance to break away from the bonds of the Islamists.

But Europe gives them voice and cedes power and land to them. The opposite of Iraq.

I get that you are only half kidding. But even at that, I'm simply and truly compelled to say
No. Not one more drop of American blood for France.
No.
Not ever.

You're turning Roger's thread into a joke. I see the goal is not to outshine Dan Rather and Anderson Cooper but to outdo them, in foolishness.

There are euphemisms running rampant throughout the press, so I'm not sure how truthful it is that it is mainly youths who are rioting. I think it is safe to say, however, that they are mainly made up of young adults, with outliers older and younger. Given that the coverage is being simpered so as not to offend a huge group of under-priveleged (and pitiable) immigrants, I think that it can be reasonably surmised that these rioters, if they are representative of the up and comming immigrant class, then the complacency, acceptance, and restraint that the older generation of immigrants showed toward their living conditions will not brook with the new vanguard. My prediction, based on multiple reports that the confrontations are diminishing, even while the burnings are increasing, is that the lasting tactic, after this dies down, if it ever does, will be hit and run terroistic acts against the French populace.

Even in its worst moments of Katrina-induced hysteria the MSM wasn't invoking Lord of the Rings and the End of Civilization. Whatever points over the MSM the Pajamas crowd scored last year are quickly being erased by this embarrassing spectacle of ignorance and hysteria.

And the lethality begins to escalate. You can have some violence upfront, or a lot of violence later. For France it is always later. Snippet translated by worldlingo:

I am kidding, totally. Just projecting the notion that governance seems to have totally screwed up in France.

But I feel sometimes I'm going a bit left. Not in siding with Islamists or being against America, but in the notion of a class of 'victims'.

And, because of Iraq and it's brave, determined, purple-fingered people I feel like muslims are the most victimized people right now...not by the West, but by the Islamist radicals and terrorists.

If you don't change your snarky, condescending, superior, snotty attitude in your comments I'll never read them again.

t. "The rioting in France still, even after a week and a half, has not claimed as many deaths as a typical Detroit victory celebration."

Richard M. Thibaud — remind us again why you're qualified to lecture us on racial tolerance?

Um, perhaps because, having grown up there, and with most of my family still living there, I know that metropolitan Detroit's population of celebrating rioter morons typically comprises a large number of whites as well as blacks?

What on earth has happened to this crowd's good sense? Why all the nonsense about the "intifada," the end of civilization, "no blood for France", pointless and witless snark alternating with whimpering about my "condescending" tone?

This is looking like the anti-jihadist's version of Bush Derangement Syndrome. Call it JDS: Jihadist Derangement Syndrome.

Let me remind the witless France-haters here that France's anti-terror judges are far, far tougher on terrorists than our own are, not least because the French magistrates have sweeping powers that would make the ACLU's most fervid opponents blush. Pre-emptive arrest. Detention for years without any habeas corpus challenges. Wiretapping, interrogation without counsel present, and on and on. These powers have been in place ever since, IIRC, the rash of Algerian and Palestinian terrorist bombings in the mid-1980s.

France's problem is not, as so many ignorant posters suppose, an excess of leftist, multi-culti coddling of its african minority. In fact, the truth is closer to the opposite: France is a deeply racist country whose judicial and police establishment has cracked down severely on the islamists. It is simply absurd to suppose that the French are somehow more tolerant than we are of islamism or violence.

Roger, thanks for keeping us up to date on the France situation, and Europe generally.

My own take on Europe:
http://asher813.blogspot.com/2005/11/somethings-rotten-in-state-of-denmark.html

Personally, I have always wondered at the odd dichotomy between France's legal system (in which defenestration is not uncommon) and its political system.. I would guess that much of France's really ugly anti Americanism derives mostly from her corrupt leaders who have been slopping around in UN and Euro money for years (and before that, and no doubt in these times, in African diamonds).

Anyway. History is happening, this is a world historical moment, and the clash of civilizations is occurring, whether you like it or not, thibaud. You may see this outbreak in Paris as a minor event, soon over; I disagree. And so far, since 9/11, I have been correct in my predictions.

Look at Chirac and his minions - and the French people, the way the 'youths' see them: They are weak. They are corrupt. They are easy to defeat.

True. But France has let the current situation get out of hand. If it had stayed confined to the banluies society at large could ignore it, just another incident in a continuing series of incidents. That is not how it has developed. Things will not be the same. I don't see what your problem is with this observation. History happens, things change, memes take hold. Recall that Lenin had nothing to do with the beginnings of the Russian Revolution, he was a late arrival from Switzerland. Trotsky was in NY. No, I don't think the situation in France is anything like that, but circumstances are ripe for exploitation. If you think France is racist today, wait until tomorrow. If the violence has been aimless and undirected this time, wait until next time or even until tomorrow evening. What was is not what will be.

Thibaud,
It's really hard to understand the point you are trying to make... about the situation in France, I mean. The back and forth arguing with other posters here about their interpretations and/or predictions are uninteresting and irrelevant really. What I am trying to comprehend is what you think will happen in France and what policies you think the French should adopt to rectify the situation on a lasting basis.

No doubt I am witless, but I don't think I'm a "France-hater" -- in fact, I'm a bit of a Francophile. (French was the first of my second languages, I am fascinated by French food, wine and women -- I could go on! ;-)

I do agree that the French have been tough on Islamists, and I admire them for that.

Perhaps we are all confused about what is behind what's going on in France. (I tried to call attention to an instance of this confusion in a serious and competent NYT reporter here.)

For splendid irony, by "The Religious Policeman" (a Saudi professional now living in Britain), take a look at today's http://muttawa.blogspot.com!

The well meaning Clive Davis lives in a dream world. We definitely know enough about the situation in France to unambiguously declare that the country is finished. The pathetic French economy cannot offer hope to its underclass. That’s the beginning and end of the situation. Will the last person leaving France please turn off the lights?

And while we are assigning blame, let us not forget the probable role of American gangsta rap. Yes, we still export revolution, one more reason for the French to hate us ;)

These people are experiencing a great deal of power, something that they have not had much of before. To them, it must be very exhilarating to be making international news and running off the police every night.

This alone is sufficient to keep them doing this for the forseeable future. The fact that most of them are muslim is only accidental, but will give them a "banner" to unify their efforts.

The problem that the police have is that to use lethal force is to acknowledge that they are dealing with lethal force, which can then become the norm. With lethal force used by both sides, a potential war arises with the white French on one side and the muslim French on the other.

The lack of weapons on the muslim side may keep this from becoming greater disaster. difference.

What I am trying to comprehend is what you think will happen in France and what policies you think the French should adopt to rectify the situation on a lasting basis

No one knows what will happen in the next few days, or weeks or months. Speculating on that is as pointless as speculation was during the Katrina mess.

Longer term, again, I don't see the point of these dire predictions by people who know very little about France's present or past, let alone its future. Another reason I find these hysterics so obnoxious is that I remember vividly being on the other end of such speculation, during the LA riots, when French friends exhibited a lesser but similar degree of incomprehending schadenfreude at America's distress. Pointless chatter filled the French press at that time, much of it tending toward the "end of US hegemony" meme (in fact, that was the title of a long post-mortem in Le Nouvel Observateur).

As to what the French sould do to solve the problem, I've stated that clearly on another thread. The essence of the problem is twofold: 1) a racial conception of national identity and 2) a set of taxation and economic policies that are rigged toward older, unionized workers and that virtually guarantee mass youth unemployment.

Here are specific steps that can, should, and (with the exception of eliminating the veil ban) probably will be taken in coming months (re-post from yesterday):

First, reduce the punitive payroll taxes and ridiculous work restrictions (35 hour work week, etc) on small employers so as to decrease youth unemployment. Slashing these restrictions would halve youth unemployment within months.

Second, permit the veil in the schools-- along with yarmulkes, crucifixes etc. Tell the kids that how they behave is what matters, not what they wear.

Third, amend tax laws to encourage capital formation and investment in technology start-ups. In every advanced country, the technology sector is the favored path to riches for talented outsiders and minority groups.

A third cause of the mess is France's housing policy, which is more complex. Basically, the government, which owns somwthing like 30% of all housing in France, has periodically built large housing projects over the years, some of them very well done and others atrociously done. Many political scandals in France surround the granting of the former to political supporters and the assigning of the latter to people who don't matter, namely, les beurs and les noirs. The result is that the kids who are rioting now live in truly wretched, third-world conditions that lack even a sporadic police presence. Think Cabrini Green, replicated across dozens of neighborhoods and cities in northern France.

Like chuck, when I was a child I also noticed that the strong take advantage of the weak on every playground in the world. I noticed that weakness once shown leads ineluctably to more attacks. And that the same phenomenon occurs frequently among adults, who daily rip each other off given half a chance of getting away with it. Deals are trashed, promises are broken, and the sharkier walk away with the cash.

But I noticed something else as a kid. A dirt poor kid by the way. The rich and upper middle class kids tended to have a lot of guilt or faux-guilt about poverty. For pampered people who have never experienced poverty in their own lives, poverty can be a convenient whipping boy. Having no real understanding of poverty, and fearing its consequences, they fetishize it.

Poverty is difficult--suffering is difficult--but it doesn't cause a damn thing. People cause things. Because of ideas they have. Because they are convinced that acting out is acceptable. Somehow, even though my siblings and I sometimes didn't have enough to eat, even though I was sometimes ostracized by other kids for my differences, my parents never saw this as an excuse for me to go out and torch cars or other people's houses or to attack the police. Nor did my local religious leader condone such actions. Neither the state nor "society" were ever blamed and it was made abundantly clear to me that I was responsible for my own actions and that they had better be the good actions, or else.

Human life does not exist in an existential materialistic vacuum which causes people to behave like automatons, reacting to every impetus like machines. I've often speculated, though, that the pampered among us who feel faux-guilty for their wealth would prefer it so. Those nasty little poor people would be so much easier to understand and control that way.

Let's face it, multiculturalism doesn't work. World history is the history of tribal warfare. Sometimes the tribes are ethnic nations, sometimes they are tight-knit religious groups. Even in Canada the East Indian minority, which is richer than native white Canadians, votes almost entirely on race. Arab Americans support the Palestinians because, they say, Israel is an oppressor nation. Jewish Americans support Israel, they claim, because it is democratic. Does anyone believe either side? Tribalism is what motivates the vast majority of people on planet earth, and it's always been that way. Claiming that Muslims in France would be as loyal to the nation as any Gaul if only they were climbing the social ladder is just ignorant economic determinism. How many times does it have to be shown that people care more about race/religion or whatever defines their tribe, than they ever will about economics, before the Marxists, libertarians, and liberal corporatists get it through their thick skulls that materialism does NOT determine history? Accepting tribalism may be dangerous but so is denying it's power.

To repeat one more point: I keep taking arms against the ignorance and hysteria here because I have, or perhaps should say, had, much higher hopes for Pajamas Media. Perhaps I drank a bit too much of the Kool Aid, but I honestly thought that Roger was serious about creating a better, more fact-based, more responsible, intelligent, and accurate media model.

But when I read endless bloviating about how Islamism is at the root of these car-burnings by unemployed african teenagers, that the French are wimps who don't understand that their muslims are knocking down the new Gates of Vienna, and so on, it seems obvious to me that this is not progress. It's more ignorance and dumb meme-mongering of the sort we expect from the Mary Mapeses of the world. And like Mapes-ism it needs to be combatted, with facts and logic and informed analysis.

“First, reduce the punitive payroll taxes and ridiculous work restrictions (35 hour work week, etc) on small employers so as to decrease youth unemployment. Slashing these restrictions would halve youth unemployment within months.”

There is a greater chance that I will humiliate Shaq O’Neal on a basketball court. The French are not going to abandon their long established socialist economic policies. This nation is therefore doomed. It’s time to turn off the lights.

David T, you don't know what the f*** you're talking about. The Socialists are not in power. Even if they were, they have implemented and will probably continue to implement market-based reforms of the sort that Mitterrand was famous for. Mitterrand and Jospin did more privatizing and deregulating than Thatcher did in Britain. That's a fact.

The 35 hour work week is a recent act. It is not sacrosanct, and will almost certainly be relaxed in the future as France wakes up to the effect that labor market rigidity has on youth employment and the costs, as we're seeing now, of mass youth unemployment. The government is now talking about enterprise zones on the US model. You need to read a bit more widely.

Baloney. The very existence of the United States contradicts your argument. Our immigrants almost usually assimilate no later than the third generation. Most of us care little about our ethnic roots. Tribalism is admittedly an important factor regarding the Muslims in France. However, it is that country’s pathetic economy which ultimately dooms it. There is simply no hope for its enraged and bitter youths. Marx exaggerated in saying that economics is everything---but it’s still damn important!

I have always enjoyed Roger's blog for the host's wit and humanity, for its wide-ranging and erudite discussions, and for the fact that everyone (well, almost everyone) adopts a civil and respectful tone even with those with whom she disagrees.

“David T, you don't know what the f*** you're talking about. The Socialists are not in power.”

Socialist policies dominate France’s economic landscape. Its official unemployment rate is roughly ten percent. Unofficially, it may be closer to fifteen. Far too many French citizens refuse to face reality. Are they the majority? It doesn't really matter. They have sufficient veto power over France’s economic policies. Nope, the country is finished. Turn off the lights, it’s over.

Earlier in the week, at another blog, i mentioned that sooner or later the EU's Open border policy was going to start to work its way into this issue. Here is an ABC News item that briefly mentions, at the very end, the governments of Italy and Germany reactions to the rioting. They both express the opinion that the same situation is brewing in their ghettoes.

The fear is spreading out from France. This will end up being a Eureopean-wide problem, particularily with the slow and inept French response so far.

"Second, permit the veil in the schools-- along with yarmulkes, crucifixes etc. Tell the kids that how they behave is what matters, not what they wear."

Yes, let's make it easier for them to self-segregate and terrorize the Jewish kids. I don't agree with the anti-veil rule, but for France's situation I suspect it might be right. If the anti-veil rule makes it easier for young women to escape the hatred of their culture then so be it.

I just spent more than half an hour responding to David Thomson's naive views about multicultural America only to be told I hadn't signed in (which I had done!) and thus lost everything. Why does that only happen on this site?

An eye-brow raising perspective if it is true. But after I saw this exact same letter on another site I wonder if it might be a hoax. If not, someone is stealing your content. http://capecodporcupine.blogspot.com/2005/11/last-time-i-saw-paris.html

If you just go ahead and sign on, then go back with your browser a page or two, you can recover your work It will be there in the comments field (amazingly enough!) and you can then just re-preview, confirm your work is still there, and then post.

I stopped reading your posts. Really. You are just being too patronizing. Just because people disagree with you does not make them stupid.

I remember when the anti war demonstrations were going on here. Communists really encouraged them and communists really did benefit from them. I know, I was there.

But that did not mean everyone in the anti war movement was a communist. I was just a dumb teenager myself.

I know France's history with countries like Algiers has been long and bloody and I know that there is more to the rioting in Paris now than some European intifada. I knew a man who lived in France in the 60's who could remember fighting in the streets.

But it would be naive to look at London and who blew up those buses and the Netherlands and who killed Van Gogh and the growing numbers of honor killings in Germany and not wonder if there is not some destructive element at play in these communities.

All over the world radical Islam is killing people, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindu and even other Muslims.

...only to be told I hadn't signed in (which I had done!) and thus lost everything.

"I have always enjoyed Roger's blog for the host's wit and humanity, for its wide-ranging and erudite discussions, and for the fact that everyone (well, almost everyone) adopts a civil and respectful tone even with those with whom she disagrees."

I feel the same way; this is far from the only bbs where I post but here I watch my p's & q's a lot more than elsewhere. Many are the potential posts that've been nixed because, on further reflection while previewing, they weren't up to perceived snuff. Other sites (no names!!) I'll just let fly with a wtf attitude.

Thibaud — And as was pointed out by others, your implication of "Detroit victory deaths" was completely contrafactual.

Unless you just presumed those rioting blacks were slaughtering each other in a sporting frenzy?

If you read the preceeding post to the one she provided a link to, you will see that I contacted Mr. Cruce after reading his email on this blog (to which I gave proper credit). I was curious at that time what the CATALYST was - I first read in the Atlantic Monthly about the Muslim slums around Paris quite a while ago. So why now? I wondered if it was the new laws banning headscarves, etc.

Mr. Cruce very kindly responded directly to me, and that was the basis of the post, Is Paris Burning? We have been emailing each other back and forth since.

Many people contacted me after that first post, and that inspired the subsequent post that Ms. Silver provided a link to (I would link, but don't quite know how in the format). I did receive another email from Paul Cruce, and much of it is similar to the one he sent to Mr. Simon, but then again, he is describing the same events and feelings. His emails to me are quite a bit longer than what I used.

However, this is not some Nigerian-bank-president-type scam, as her post implies. I know I have had direct and requested contact with him, and I assume Mr. Simon has had the same. I am sorry if anybody disbelieves him because he wrote to more than one person.

Man, you're really off your game tonight, Richard. I pointed out that whites and blacks alike engage in rioting in Detroit-- to make it clear for you, this is to say that such behavior after sporting events has zip to do with race-- and you still try to fix the racist label on me.

Yes, you're right that the number of deaths in Detroit victory celebrations does not exceed the number of deaths after 10 nights of car-burnings in France-- excuse me, the Intifada, the Barbarians at the Gates of Vienna, the End of Civilization, Armageddon. The number of deaths in both cases is zero.

The problem with declarative statements of fact in any situation other than 'historical' is that they tend to be WRONG.

as a touristic business manager, as a parisian, as a citizen of a democracy, i m even more sad when i watch cnn and other medias than when i watch cars burning in the suburbs.. here in the historical center despite some fears, life is safe and peaceful..nothing has changed... just a visit to our web site will make you understand what is le marais and specialy paris district 3... http://www.parismarais.com/index.htm it s true we do have poors in France ( 7% of the population )and we should start to consider them, it s true the gap is growing in France between the rich and the poors, but it s not true we are at civil war... let me remind you statistics about murders... 250 deads per year in France by gun shots for 60 millions french. over 12 000 in the USA for 300 millions americans... the violence is very much focused by the medias because it's very unusual... and new to a globaly peacuful society. even today, Paris is safer than any big american city...

here s the point of view of a great friend : Adrian Leeds, an american writer living in Paris, in the 3rd next street to mine...

To ignore the Paris riots would be irresponsible on my part, but I must tell you, that if it weren't for my CNN news alerts, I wouldn't know they were happening. That's not to say that my head is "in the sand," but living in central Paris, there has been no sign of the angered destruction taking place in the "banlieue" (suburbs) or in other parts of France

I caution all those watching and reading American media so as not to overexaggerate the true situation. Remember that the American media is run by entertainment organizations that tend to sensationalize the news to build ratings. Remember that they usually take the same 20-second "sound bite" and run it every hour on the hour or more often leading you to believe the event is happening in continuous motion, rather than done and past. Remember that in Paris, the rich live in the center and the poor live in the suburbs -- the opposite of the U.S. condition of the inner cities vs the wealthy "burbs."

There is no question of the seriousness of the situation. For a very long time the poorly treated immigrant pot has been simmering and predictions of it coming to a boiling point have been whispered about. Now the time has come for France to pay for its mistakes vis a vis its poor and suffering immigrant population, mostly of North African and West African origin, who are jobless and grossly discriminated against. I remind myself that I, too, am an immigrant in France, but my white face and western background don't threaten the French middle class.

Craig S. Smith of the New York Times reminds us that "Just two months ago, the French watched in horrified fascination at the anarchy of New Orleans, where members of America's underclass were seen looting stores and defying the police in the wake of Hurricane Katrina."

In his article "France Has an Underclass, but Its Roots Are Still Shallow" published November 6, 2005, he continues, "The corrosive gap between America's whites and its racial minorities, especially African-Americans, is the product of centuries: slavery, followed by cycles of poverty and racial exclusion that denied generation after generation the best the United States could offer. France, on the other hand, is only beginning to struggle with a much newer variant of the same problem: the fury of Muslims of North African descent who have found themselves caught for three generations in a trap of ethnic and religious discrimination."

Now both sides of the Atlantic are getting a taste for their just rewards. While the rioting is destructive, just like Katrina was, it sheds new light on problems that need to be addressed NOW, not tomorrow, and for our pain and suffering will come renewed enlightenment. Just like my cast will help heal my torn ligaments, so shall the uncorralled and violent expression strengthen the cause.

Call me the ultimate optimist as one of France's more welcome immigrants, but I see a brighter future for an ailing community from a more tolerant government.

November 6, 2005: Paris Sadness - Another Email

Comments

Post a comment