Roger L. Simon: Them's Fightin' Words!

Reynolds, father and daughter, have come up with two titles (in order) for that elusive mantle of "best movie ever made." In our house father and daughter lean these two ways. Guess which is which.

UPDATE: For the record, that was my favorite movie as of nine o'clock on this Saturday morning. An hour, even a half hour, later it was something else. And this, for me, is the most haunting of all.

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Imagine my surprise to see Sound of Music pop up. Gotta go with daughter on that one (maybe she'll grow out of it?).

“The movie, from 1933, is tremendously satirical, a play on politics and war. (As Firefly says to a hapless young solider, "You're a brave man. Go and break through the lines. And remember, while you're out there risking your life and limb through shot and shell, we'll be in be in here thinking what a sucker you are.")”

I don’t recall ever seeing Duck Soup. It probably is very funny. Did the antiwar sentiments expressed by Groucho Marx unwittingly discouraged our dealing with Adolph Hitler while there was still to minimize the danger? I wonder if he would have uttered the same lines just six years later.

Duck Soup is hilarious. Used to watch it whenever Channel 5 in LA used to air one Marx Bros. film/night for a week in prime time. I was always enchanted by the running gag with Groucho and Harpo and the motorcycle side car, for some reason.

David, I suspect that its overall anti-war tone is more a take on what Europe had done to itself 20 years earlier and what, thanks to the combination of fascism and nationalism, it might do again. Very much a product of the Lost Generation era, in some ways. By WWII, the Marxes were too old for any kind of military service, but IIRC, there are recordings of them participating in war bond drive programming.

With respect, I think perhaps it's about time you taught your daughter just a little about the real history of Austria between 1938 and 1945.

That Richard Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein II could have created this musical proves yet again how estranged so many privileged and assimilated American Jews are from the harsh realities of Jewish life. And no surprise that this estrangement should have led so many to stop supporting Jewish charities and turn their back on Israel.

“And no surprise that this estrangement should have led so many to stop supporting Jewish charities and turn their back on Israel.

All you need to know is this: the last major pro-Israel film was made in 1966! Kirk douglas played the role of Mickey Marcus in “Cast a Giant Shadow.” John Wayne, Yul Brenner, and Frank Sinatra also participated in this project.

That, David, is what gives the lie to the anti-Semite's claims that Jewish power and influence favors Jews. A case in point: the Jewish-owned New York Times, which spent the war covering up the Holocaust, and today is viciously anti-Israel. Another example: 40% of all large gifts to charity are made by Jews; of that sum, virtually nothing is donated to Jewish charities.

Doug S, that's the way I see Duck Soup--a lampoon of the pre WWI Euro nobility--the idea that WWI's carnage was the aristocracy's parlor game that got a little out of control (remember, it wasn't "WWI" until 1939). Did this idea help Hitler? Everything about the 30s helped Hitler. Anyhoo, if you're moving to Arizona and can take only one movie, it's the one to take, it'll improve yer sense of Yuma.

"Exodus" too, in the 60s. Maybe Hollywood would've stayed with Israel if she'd lost the Six-Day War and ended up an abstraction.

“A case in point: the Jewish-owned New York Times, which spent the war covering up the Holocaust, and today is viciously anti-Israel.”

You may wish to take a look at Laurel Leff’s “Buried by the Times : The Holocaust and America's Most Important Newspaper.”

I also unhesitatingly claim that today’s Democratic Party is more dangeous, on a practical level, to Israel than America's Nazis! The latter are marginalized and nobody pays them any attention.

And Joshua, it's worth remembering that Georg and Maria von Trapp left everything behind --- estates, money, family --- to escape because Herr Baron von Trapp wouldn't serve the Nazis, and became a singing group in order to eat. I don't think the movie sanitizes the Anschluss at all, and it certainly can't do much about the period 1938--1945, since it ends in 1938.

Coincidental timing, but a girl for whom my wife and I buy holiday gifts every year (we went back to Pennsylvania earlier in the month to, in part, celebrate her graduation) really, really, really wanted this. I was very happy (though I found it instantly forgettable way back when I saw it) to go out and buy it for her. At last report she'd watched it 12 times.

This remains my favorite with Shichinin no Samurai, It's A Wonderful Life, Citizen Kane, Casablanca, Lawrence of Arabia, Singin' in the Rain, Ikiru, Les Enfants du Paradis and Dr. Strangelove: Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb rounding out the top ten.

Yeah, Duck Soup isn't so much a pacifist movie as it is a spoof of puffed-up ideas of national honor. It's not so much that the two countries are going to war, but that they rile up over absolutely nothing. The 'battle' sequences at the end are really quite funny in a vaudeville schtick kind of way.

And you're right that a *lot* of stuff that went on in the 1930s helped Hitler. Certainly, the memories of WWI made a lot of folks reluctant to go to war again, and that was a very important factor. Remember, Chamberlain didn't become unpopular right after Munich, he became unpopular after Hitler double-crossed him.

As to Groucho, I'll never forget something that one of my 7th grade teachers once said to me when we were discussing the Bros. Marx: "If more people listened to Groucho Marx and fewer listened to Karl Marx, the world would be a much better place." Yes, I was lucky; I had some very senisble teachers.

Lets not be too hasty in deciding the father-daughter favorite movie issue.The younger Simon's taste in party hats points to a preference for the comic and absurd, and "I'm Against It" is the perfect theme song for that rebellious age.

Consider Roger's Sisyphean attempt to make a living in reactionary Hollywood while maintaining a thinking man's Liberal political outlook. He might just need a nightly replay of "Climb Every Mountain" to raise his flagging spirits. And lets face it, behind the front of world weary sophistication Roger is a closet fan of sentimental heart tuggers. Mind you, this is just a theory.

1) The audience at the concert singing "Eidelweiss" almost as one, so as to suggest a rejection of the Anschluss.

This was abject nonsense. No country was more welcoming to the Nazis than Austria. No country other than German was more culpable for the Holocaust. No country other than Germany provided more recruits to the SS. No country, including Germany, treated its Jewish population in a more vile fashion (something actually recognised and welcomed by the very senior members of Hitler's inner cabinet). No country, including Germany, has accepted less responsibility for the Holocaust. No country has made as little restitution of the huge amount of Jewish property it stole than Austria.

With some notable exceptions in Western Europe, there was massive collaboration between the church and the Nazis in Europe. By far the greatest collaboration was between members of the Roman Catholic Church in Austria and the Gestapo.

"and it certainly can't do much about the period 1938--1945, since it ends in 1938."

But knowing how the real story ended, the writers had a duty not to whitewash the manifold crimes of the Austrian people.

A few days after the Nazis marched in to be received by a rapturous Austrian welcome, the streets of Vienna were covered with Jewish people, old and young, men and women, who had been forced to scrub the streets on their hands and knees whilst surrounded by jeering crowds of many thousands of ordinary Austrians.

My niece's choice for Best Movie was Roman Holiday. After I gave it to her for Christmas, Hepburn became her favorite actress, too.

Wow, Joshua, give R&H a break. They were making a musical about the life of Maria Von Trapp, not an indictment of Austria's role in the rise of Nazism. Oscar Hammerstein, in fact, had a highly raised consciousness about such matters and seldom shied away from controversial subject matter. His shows, and his lyrics, often dealt with such dicey matters as miscengenation and racial prejudice (see South Pacific, Showboat, Flower Drum Song, The King and I for examples). No, the problem with The Sound of Music is not political, as a matter of fact it does a decent job with that angle.

On the occasion of its Broadway revival a few years back, one of the local wags remarked "Same old treacle". I thought it was the perfect characterization of the show and would have served the critic equally well on opening night in 1959.

Still, there's no denying its universal appeal. Not only do 7-year old girls claim it as their favorite, but also 89-year old aunts.

Sorry folks but the best movie is "Samurai Fiction". Well either that or "Hard Boiled".

It must just be my relative immaturity, but my favorite films are more along these lines. I guess I need to grow up a little. :D

Gee, registering to comment here was an obnoxious pain in the ass.
But I did it. I did it because, you're all wrong, all of you.
THE GREATEST MOVIE EVER IS "BARRY LYNDON".
So there.

Contemporary movie that rewards multiple watchings with different laffs every time: The Big Lebowsky.

Like Roger, I could never pick just one. So how about the most beautiful actress ever?

Whether Barry Lyndon was the best movie ever made is debatable. Whether it is in the top ten is not. Check it out if you haven't ever seen it or if the last time was ten or fifteen years ago.

There cannot be a movie because movies cannot be compared solely on a single parameter. Which is the better tool for digging a hole, a dibble or a dragline?

Carousel - If I Loved You is the greatest love song ever written for screen or stage.

Ninotchka - It took guts to produce that movie in a Hollywood much more comfortable with the likes of Mission To Moscow. A comedy for adults.

Dr. Zhivago - Rod Steiger really knew how to play a cold-blooded bastard, didn't he?

Why, the real stuff, of course. I think I'll pop up some corn and watch it tonight. Thanks for reminding me.

The first two weeks of Barry Lyndon were OK, but it kinda dragged towards the end.

mrp--Hammerstein grappled with how to introduce a love song early in the show, before the characters had actually fallen in love. He came up with the if I loved you scenario. We Could Make Believe (I loved you) (Showboat), People Will Say We're In Love (Oklahoma). Pretty clever and made for some great songs.

"Oklahoma"-top cold-blooded Steiger, top R & H love song "If I loved You". Damn what a movie.

Ha! Thanks, Kyda--that's the one I meant--"People Will Say We're In Love". I never thought about the timing inside the movie--I saw it as 19th-century whatever--the "if" made it possible for them to work their way toward each other. Remember Jud getting into the "Poor Jud is Daid" song? Then realizing ole Curly had him?

LOL--BLyndon paced a lotta scenes in real time--real 17th century time, by the third act. Definitely needs a coffee intermission.

Stanley Kubrick was a mixed bag, sometimes in the same film. I'm with mrp on Lyndon (LOL by the way), it did drag (fabulous cinematography though). He did pull off at least one absolute masterpiece and guided Peter Sellers through a performance that should have won 3 Oscars.

I found an interesting a href="http://www.indelibleinc.com/kubrick/films/blyndon/presstexts/irish.html">behind-the-scenes report of Kubrick's filming of the Battle of Warburg scend (Warburg was an action that took place during the Seven Years War - 1760). Pace

A supple necklace of exquisitely filmed vignettes - every one of them perfect in its place.

The music is certainly better than that in "The Sound of Music", courtesy of geniuses like Handel, Mozart, Vivaldi, Bach, Rossini, and Schubert.

It's the music and the lyrics, in my opinion, that are the problem with "The Sound of Music". Rodgers was a great song-writer, and Hammerstein an equally great lyricist, both of them great enough that there's really no point in arguing whether Gershwin, Kern, etc., wrote better music or Lorenz Hart was a better partner as Rodgers's lyricist. I think that they'd said all that they had to say much earlier. "South Pacific", in my opinion, was the last great work that they produced. There's no shame in that; many great artists spent their final years producing little or no great work. Rodgers's work, in my opinion, declined still further after Hammerstein's death. Nobody except real fanatics about Broadway musicals has any interest in "On a Clear Day You Can See Forever", for example.

mrp, the main battle was great, but the earlier skirmish with the French unit--where Barry Lyndon's uncle was killed--was the best vignette of what 18th century combat must've looked like I imagine we'll ever see.

Kyda, right on Strangelove, but Full Metal Jacket and The Shining weren't exactly stinkers.

I liked Barry Lyndon but greatest ever is a stretch. I rank Dr. Strangelove and Full Metal Jacket ahead of it even on a Kubrick list. These are my favorites, in no particular order. Manchurian Candidate, On the Waterfront( on the phrase battle I have always liked "I coulda been a contender" over "Stelllllllaaaaaaa"), Lawrence of Arabia, Dr. Zhivago(I still have a crush on Julie Christie), Burnt by the Sun, the Red, Blue and White trilogy, Patton( George C. Scott, incredible actor),Duck Soup,Manhattan, the Godfather, and a guilty pleasure, Shallow Grave.

To me, Barry Lyndon was impressionistic, art for the eyes and ears. The dialog was reactive and subordinate to the amount of time and space in each scene. Considering the budget and the number of takes, big surprise :) Welcome to Barry World.

Kubrick took a more conventional approach in two of his earlier films, Spartacus and Paths of Glory. In both, Kirk Douglas played the part of a man of action, while Ryan O'Neal's Barry was the pawn of events until, after reaching a position of high social standing, he becomes the author of his own demise.

One more addition. In the "Best Film Made for Propaganda"- "Reds". Great film, most foul whitewash of the Russian Revolution. Beatty puts in enough of a critque to appear to be neutral but the result is to make the viewer rush out to sign his party card so you can make the corrections that will bring the gloriuos revolution that should have happened. It makes a fantastic argument that led by the right people Communism will save the world. I still watch it and I see the subtle lies that are in every frame. Stirring and pornographic at the same time.

SVJ, you might be right about the music in the SofM, but when you consider the transcendent possibilities Coltrane found in that silly song, you gotta say they still had the genius in them, they just didn't know how to bring it out!

Roshomon is a transcendent movie about the mirrors of the mind. But Ikiru is a transcendent movie about life itself.

Some people are reading *way* too much into "Sound of Music" and "Duck Soup". Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

10. Mean Streets
9. Network
8. Casablanca
7. Dr. Strangelove
6. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
5. Hud
4. Maltese Falcon
3. Chinatown
2. Midnight Cowboy
1. On the Waterfront

That's a thought--the dialogue was minimal and muted, wasn't it. And the scenes were picture-framed--esp the nocturne interiors and the gardens--as impressionist paintings. Sly way to add verite & ambience, as paintings, buildings, and gardens are all we have of that before-camera period. Look real by looking not-real.

I do not think it is fair to try to compare classical and popular music. They have different goals, different functions. The complexity and depth of classical music and the length allowed for the artist to explore themes give it an unfair advantage. I think you have to judge them as seperate categories. It would be like judging film shorts and full length films by the same standards. A short can be art but it can't hope to be equal to full length film. There is something about SOM that defies logic.There is something to be said about the joy it inspires. I think if you look too hard at it or judge it as history you are missing the point. A lot of the movies that thrilled me as a child don't move me today, even as a nostolgic reminder. SOM does. I know lots of hard boiled cynics that feel the same way. Everyone is different but sometimes it is ok to ignore your mind and give over to your feelings. Films that are able to do that on such a large scale sometimes defy reason.

10. High Noon
9. On the Waterfront
8. Patton
7. Crimes and Misdemeanors
6. The Searchers
5. Vertigo
4. The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
3. Citizen Kane
2. Godfather I & II
1. Casablanca

10. The Grand Illusion
9. Cleo from 5 to 7
8. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
7. Nights of Cabiria
6. The Third Man
5. Ikiru
4. Tokyo Story
3. Smiles of a Summer Night
2. Seven Samuri
1. Rules of the Game

10. Oklahoma
9. It's Always Fair Weather
8. Wizard of Oz
7. South Pacific
6. American in Paris
5. High Society
4. Topsy-Turvy
3. Yankee Doodle Dandy
2. My Fair Lady
1. Singing in the Rain

10. Some Like it Hot
9. There's Something About Mary
8. Bringing Up Baby
7. Horse Feathers
6. Airplane
5. Arsenic and Old Lace
4. What About Bob?
3. The Producers
2. Monty Python and the Holy Grail
1. A Fish Called Wanda

10. Soldier of Orange
9. Two for the Road
8. Darling
7. The Seventh Seal
6. Shoot the Piano Player
5. The Bicycle Thief
4. Eat, Drink, Man, Woman
3. The Adventures of Robin Hood
2. Sunset Boulevard
1. Jules and Jim

10. Snow White
9. Lady and the Tramp
8. Cowboy Bebop
7. Monsters, Inc.
6. Toy Story I & II
5. The Triplets of Belleville
4. Shrek
3. Fantasia
2. Princess Mononoke
1. Pinocchio

There are so many different kinds of movies that picking a single best is virtually impossible. I hope this adds to the discussion.

Buddy, Lynch's masterpiece is Mulholland Dr., imho top film of the millennium so far. Though I might have missed a few. Too much time in front of the computer, turning out to be quite a differnet millennium, eyes wise.

If you are really going to the mall for C's My Favourite Things, you might look for the reproduction of the Stockholm 1961 concert album, issued by Hallmark as "Blue Trane" (1996). THe sound quality is not very good, but it has a twenty minute version with Eric Dolphy on flute that is awesome.

The best part of Duck Soup is when Groucho runs through the garden party, snatches a donut off the plate of Innocent Bystander A, and dunks it in the coffee of Innocent Bystander B.

Now then, let's think this through methodically. Starting with the widely accepted fact that the best thing about any film is Edward Everett Horton, we must therefore conclude that the best film must be the one with the most Edward Everett Hortons in it, which means that this one, which has two count 'em two Edward Everett Hortons, is the best film ever.

[Queeg] I've proved it beyond a shadow of a doubt and with geometric logic! [/Queeg]

Roger, if you like Ikiru, you'll love Tokyo Story by Ozu. Of the two, I think Tokyo Story is better.

We'll have to agree to disagree about that. I've owned a recording of Coltrane's performance of "My Favorite Things" for more than thirty years, and I've never seen what impresses folks so much. The failure may well be mine, since many of those who think it's great are among those whose opinions I respect.

Fair enough. My point was actually that, judged according to the standards of other musicals, The Sound of Music still isn't all that good. I don't think that it measures up to Oklahoma!, Carousel, or South Pacific among Rodgers and Hammerstein's own work, nor to My Fair Lady, Show Boat, or Guys and Dolls. There are probably a dozen others that I could name, given time. Its appeal is far from universal; I'd guess that about 80% of those who really like it are female. I don't think that female taste is inferior to male taste, but I do think that universality is a characteristic of great art. I think that, for example, the three Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals that I list above have that characteristic.

I think that it was somebody else who made a point about historical inaccuracy, not I.

One of my biggest gripes with Hollywood producers through the years is their penchant for employing non-singing actors in those wonderful musical roles (I mean who was the evil genius who said "Audrey Hepburn"--and I'm a big Hepburn fan--when it came time to cast the film version of My Fair Lady?). The only time I saw it work really well was The King and I. Deborah Kerr was particularly adept and Marnie Nixon's voice seemed to suit her to a 'T'. At least they didn't make that mistake with SofM.

What's the deal with bagging on "The Sound of Music"? Genius in entertainment is achieved when I can enjoy the same program as my two-year-old. :)

Jaws - The captain goes down with the ship...I never appreciated the poetic genius in this until seeing it again two years ago. Oh yeah, you're gonna need a bigger boat.

Army of Darkness - Why, why, why? Stupid dialogue, cheesy fx...and that's just the beginning! This one will become a classic due the immortal line: "Give me some sugar baby". [Bruce Campbell rocks!]

L.A. Confidential - Perfection by Mssrs. Spacey, Pearce, and Crowe (before I knew enough about him to be annoyed by his mere presence).

Fiddler on the Roof - "Tra-di-tion!". How any of these musical lists were made without including this one is beyond me. Clearly, an egregious oversight.

Aliens - All-time favorite. Look elsewhere for a philosophical treatise on the greatness of this one. I've seen it over 30 times...and I'll probably see it 30 more.

June 25, 2005: Them's Fightin' Words!

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